Kylie: Well, good morning Katy. Will you tell us, so you guys, I know Katy from college, and she owns a Pilates studio, and also teaches Gyrotonic, is that correct?

Katy: Yes.

Kylie: So tell us all about what you do right now.

Katy: I own a Pilates studio in downtown Chicago, and have for the last 15 years.

Kylie: Oh my gosh!

Katy: I know! We specialize in Pilates on all the equipment because there are more than just reformers. GYROTONIC® exercise, which is another movement modality that a lot of people still haven't heard about, but it's amazing. And there's another practitioner here who does Feldenkrais work. We offer Franklin Method. I also specialize in something called Restorative Exercise, which is based on Katy Bowman's work of Nutritious Movement®. She focuses a lot on natural movement, and how to incorporate more movement into your day.

Kylie: So that's amazing, and the fact she's had a studio for 15 years. That's amazing. With the current climate, at least the way it is out here in Denver.

Katy: Well, we've gone through all the storms. Back in 2007 or whenever that mini crash was with real estate, I watched a lot of studios close. And the fact that we weathered them, kind of proves that whatever we're doing was working. And we're still here to talk about it!

Kylie: That's awesome! And not to discredit what you do, like I cringe when I even think about it, but like group Pilates classes. I don't know what you think about like a Pilates Plus, I can't imagine the instructors have what you have.

Katy: You can teach Pilates or GYROTONIC® and it is a job, or you can do this as a career.

Kylie: Gotcha.

Katy: As a teacher trainer, a lot of women go through wanting a part time job because they, "want to be able to help my kids out after school and I want to make my own hours," and there's that personality.

Then there's somebody else who just loves the body, is kind of a body nerd, loves anatomy, and loves helping people. Coincidentally, there's a Pilates studio upstairs in my building. All they do is reformer work, it's a self created method, and they pack it full of students. I think people don't understand that the work is much more than just the reformer, it's a whole system of movement.

I think that we both give a very different product. I turn a blind eye and keep on going. People are going to be drawn to the group classes and an online trained Pilates teacher, at a really low cost. Then the people who need true body education, pain management, recovery from injuries, more the aging population, they come to me.

Kylie: Yeah, I love that. It's no different than my job. Everybody does what I do, and you can find a price point that works for you. But we have to have that abundance mentality, that there's enough people for you. There's no lack for me, but it's it's really interesting to watch the evolution of it all.

Katy: Yeah, it is. It's an evolution, you're absolutely right.

Kylie: My gals, the majority of them, strength train. Pretty much everyone is able bodied. Most of them have office jobs, or real estate, where they're out in the field, but they're in their car. What kind of movements do you think they need to supplement what they're doing?

Katy: I like to break down movement versus exercise. Is exercise movement? OR is movement exercise? To me, they're two separate categories. It's very simple, but to me, just knowing what the difference is between the two, makes a big difference mentally.

The way I look at it, exercise always has a goal. You want to lose weight, you want to lose inches, you want to gain strength, you want to burn calories, there's always a goal mindset. That's why you're choosing to do what you're doing with that specific exercise.

Movement is whatever you're doing to get yourself through the day. You have to move from point A to point B, you have to carry something, it's just movement. You're breathing, that's movement. You're blinking, that's movement. So exercise is movement, but movement is not necessarily exercise. Once I learned that, I was like, woah!

You are amazing at giving your ladies exercise, and that is your specialty. They have their goals, and you're so awesome with clear goal setting. There's a purpose, and there's a drive. I like to supplement with movement, where can you sneak in more in your day. Where it acts like an exercise, as a subconscious goal, but that's not what you're really thinking about. We like to call it "stacking your life."

Take something that you already have to do in your daily life, and layer on a little extra movement. It's really like an exercise, but you don't have to call it that, because you're already doing that to get yourself from point A to point B.

A good example is that old advice of parking at the furthest parking spot at the grocery store. You're stacking your life in this instance because you already had to go to the grocery store, and you're already going to park. Parking at the furthest spot, where you can walk the distance to the grocery store, stacks two elements:

1.) You're getting a little extra outdoor time. And since we're all a little bit deficient of nature, it's a bonus.

2.) Grocery shopping. You're accomplishing the task of getting your groceries for the week, which is necessary to feed your family.

When you get to the grocery store, do you push your cart, or do you carry some groceries in a basket? If you carry your groceries, then you're getting your upper body workout for the day.

Kylie: Oh nice.

Katy: You're layering in movement opportunities of adding more throughout your day. And because you have a goal of wanting more upper body strength, then by challenging your upper body by carrying two baskets at the grocery store, is a great place to start.

If the baskets get too heavy, put groceries in a cart, but at least for a few minutes, you've been carrying around heavy items. And then layered in another opportunity to get more movement in the day.

Kylie: Oh my gosh, and that's what we're talking about today, right? I want to reiterate how this really applies to what we're doing, because Katy, a really big thing for what I do is this thing called NEAT. Are you familiar with NEAT-Non-Exercise Activity? We don't want to be exercising more, we want to be moving more. And when we move more, whether it's a fidget or carrying two baskets, we're going to be burning more calories. And our goal isn't to always burn calories, but our bodies are going to work harder when we're doing these things, so this is SO important.

I really don't want people in the gym, all day every day, I want them to get their four to five workouts in a week. Maybe three, I don't care, but then they're moving. How else can we do this?

Katy: Some of my favorite examples are, one, if you pick up your child from school, park two blocks away and walk there. It probably doesn't add that much time to your day, because you're probably sitting in the carpool lane to begin with. But what if you park two blocks from school, parked your car, and walked? Then your child has an opportunity to walk to the car, you also have extra time talking to your child. Maybe they can unload their day on you, and in the meantime, you've gotten a walk.

With stacking your life, we're always trying to find ways to add more community, more outdoor time, more time spent with our family, eating, etc. When you walk to pick up your child from school, you can eat snacks, have outdoor time, you're talking, and you're getting movement.

It's really simple, but yet it doesn't always occur to us. I think the Katy Bowman work with Nutritious Movement® is all simple stuff. Anyone can come up with parking two blocks away and walking to get your kid from school. As opposed to sitting in a car, on the phone, waiting for the child to be let out from school. Really simple, effective ways to sneak in more opportunities to stack your life.

Kylie: I love it, because with my high performance coaching, we talk a lot about like the same thing. I'm not giving any groundbreaking advice. Common sense is not always common practice.

Katy: Exactly like that. That's a great phrase!

Kylie: How true is that? I mean it!

Katy: I know having come from a dance background, Pilates background, and GYROTONIC® exercise, I was addicted to the idea that I needed to go to a gym and workout for an hour every day. That was some programming I learned along the way, and I don't know when it happened, but I would get anxiety if I did not get my hourly workout in the day. It became a problem.

Once I learned that movement is not exercise, it was so freeing. I take the train to and from work, you know, I live in Chicago. Like what I was saying about the pick up for the child, I get off the train two stops early. I'm already going home, and if I have the time, I can walk those two last train stops almost faster than the train can take me there. Then boom, I've gotten some outdoor time, a little walk in, and I make my phone calls.

I think one of the perfect ways to stack your life is those phone calls where you're going to have to sit on hold. You know it's just brutal, so walk. By bringing your phone with you while you sit on hold, while you're walking, is not so mind numbing and painful.

I think finding that simplicity. Once I had this paradigm shift of movement as movement, it was really freeing and a whole other mindset. Standing workstations, sitting workstations, you have to be productive, but still be at a desk. But there are ways to incorporate a little bit more sneaky movement in your day.

The objective of the upper body workout, wanting arms more toned or better posture, whatever it is, stacking it into your day makes it happen more easily. The frequency of it happening all day long, as opposed to a quick spurt, I think is actually more effective in the tissues and your structure. I think that your body will adapt to that better, than a really hard, quick, spurt of time. I think frequency spread out throughout your day, is going to really do it.

Kylie: I love that too, because if you think about anything like habit formation, frequency over time yields the most benefits. I have to say, one point you had that's ingrained, "I have to get my hour in at the gym." So there's two of us in my group that are swimmers. It's literally ingrained in us because both of us have struggled with the fact that we used to work out, two times a day, and that would be normal. We've had to reprogram that that's not normal or necessary. But it's crazy, that's something to think about.

For those of us coaches, we want our clients to do the things, but make sure they see the bigger picture. I love this because I love what you're talking about this is big picture stuff. It's all part of a bigger picture, because when you're not spending all that time in the gym, and I love going to the gym, there's so much more when you're doing this. Your life is richer, I feel like more freedom. Are there any other ways that you like to stack movement?

Katy: I talked about this really briefly, the standing workstations. Standing desks became really en vogue, at least around here, I don't know if it spread across the country. They're great, because it gives you some variants in how you're being productive. But it also comes at a cost, because we weren't meant to stand for long hours throughout the day. If you think of the Industrial Revolution, people stood at conveyor belts tinkering and putting things together, and then there were a host of issues that happened as a result. Everyone went to sitting, and then we kind of just stayed there.

We like to call it a dynamic work station. You find ways that you can be productive, like at your computer, but you have opportunities where you could have a standing workstation or maybe you can sit on the floor. If you have a laptop, you can move it around and find different areas of the house or office that you could switch up your environment.

I also have things like balls under my desk where I roll out my feet. I think if you are going to do a standing workstation, you should have an anti fatigue mat, because it isn't natural to be standing on a hard surface, all day long. I have little toys that follow me around wherever I'm going to find myself standing for long periods of time.

The kitchen sink is also another one, where people stand for a long period of time, because they're chopping or cooking. It's another opportunity, since you're already standing there, to make it more dynamic. I've got a half foam roller, and can do some calf stretching, or I have a rock mat at my feet. I like to sneak in opportunities to add more movement to something that I'm already going to be doing.

Kylie: This is so brilliant. Like you said, how have we not thought about this before? I love that idea, because I recently started tracking my steps, I just wanted to know. Yeah, not pretty. Oh my gosh, I have to make it a point to get up throughout my day to get steps in. That means I'm sedentary, like I'm sitting all day long. I need to find a place where I can stand throughout the day and do my steps. It just goes to show you it doesn't matter if you're working out for an hour, 45 minutes in the gym, if you're sedentary the rest of the day.

Katy: Right, so we like to call that exercise sedenterism. It's a concept that if you break down your day into a 24 hour period, take out one hour, that's 1/24th of your day. Subtract some sleep time in there, but at the end of the day, it's just a very small percentage of your day. And so, if I got an hour of working out in, I thought that it offset the eight hours a day that I was sitting at my desk. But that's not true. My brain thought that, but my tissues didn't believe that.

I think one of the hardest occupations is being a therapist, because they are required to sit, be still, and focus on the patient. They sit hour after hour, and there's really not an opportunity for them to get up and move around. So, even if they work out for one hour a day, it does not offset the many hours that they're sitting in a chair talking to patients. It's an uphill battle.

If you can add that frequency throughout your day, and have the hour workout, there's still an opportunity to keep moving throughout your day. It goes back to frequency, beyond just the hour workout.

Kylie: Yeah. Oh my gosh. You mentioned therapist, I also feel that being a hairdresser is extremely hard. You're on your feet and your arms are doing weird things and it's repetitive. My friend, Dana, her body's out of whack. She loves GYROTONIC®, so if you're ever looking to expand, there's one GYROTONIC® studio in the area, and it's in Boulder, not in Denver, so we need you! What do you tell those people, how do you help that person?

Katy: Oh, it's so hard! A long time ago, when Michael Phelps was at the top of his career somebody said, "I would love to like get my hands on him and do my magic and correct his alignment." And I'm like, I wouldn't touch that with a 10 foot pole, because he is trying to do a feat. His job is to get from one end of the pool to the other, as fast as humanly possible. He will distort his body, any way possible, to make that happen. Because again, it's his goal. His mindset is to do it fast. He has a ton of compensation techniques to get him there, which is what he should be doing.

The same thing happens when you have like a manual job like a hairdresser. Anytime you've got repetitive motion, that you're doing over and over again, you're going to have to be extra mindful of stretching that particular arm with hand stretches, and some forearm work. Then you're going to make sure that you use your other hand to do as many other things throughout the day as possible.

If you're typically right handed, and you're always rolling the brush with that hand, you need to give that hand a break and force yourself to pick up and carry things with your other hand to offset it. It's like cross training those tissues. They've been overworked, so make the other ones pick up the slack.

What ultimately happens if you keep doing something repetitively, like a pitcher throwing a ball over and over again on one side, you'll see their whole body change and side bend to the side that runs tighter and overworked. Ultimately we want to keep people a little bit more aligned and organized, so you have to find those other opportunities and offset them, because it's like cross training.

Kylie: Yeah, I see why that would be totally beneficial and I can't wait to tell Dana.

Katy: I mean, it's hard. It's hard because you have to be really thoughtful, and you have to want to make it a priority. You know you need to give that dominant hand a break. I assume that doing some of those repetitive activities would also lend themselves to things in your day that will mimic that movement. I'm thinking of the rolling the brush action, bending your wrist and tilting your hand. That's the same thing as typing at your computer.

Kylie: Oh my gosh!

Katy: So that wrist is getting double duty, if Dana does any computer work and blow dry's somebody's hair. She would have to deliberately make thoughtful choices to minimizing typing work, by maybe talking into something to get words on a screen, and give those tissues a break.

Kylie: Oh my God, that's awesome. So are there any other ways that we can stack our movement any other tricks you got for us.

Katy: Okay so this could be a little controversial, but one of the reasons we don't move as much, is because there's a lot of technology. I'm not going to say technology like this (computer), I'm talking technology like a pillow. Or a stroller. Those are basic technologies. A car, obviously. A chair, that's a technology. Most people didn't have chairs hundreds of years ago. We have all these technologies and they're so embedded into our lifestyle, that you don't even think that you shouldn't utilize them. Or that you have an option not to utilize them, like a chair.

For instance, we do lots of floor sitting. It helps to have younger kids, because you're going to be on the floor, anyways. I just remember when I had my son, and I was sitting on the floor, I was like, "I'm on the floor all the time. I need to start vacuuming my floor on a regular basis!" I got a Roomba, because I was on the floor all the time.

Also, do you always need a stroller? I'm in the city and we walk everywhere. You typically stroller ride everywhere you go. I made a very concerted effort with my kids, that they could walk places. Sometimes I pushed the empty stroller, and the kids would walk alongside me.

That's a good example of stacking your life. We're getting outdoor time. My children are getting movement. I'm getting movement. I'm pushing the stroller, in case they need to hop back in. It's another movement opportunity for everybody to move more, but it's a technology and we think of it as a part of our daily life. I think it makes a big difference.

Escalators versus stairs. They're both a technology. Stairs are going to make you move more, so that's a better option versus an escalator. All technologies, because we didn't have stairs, we had hills. If you rolled time back hundreds of years ago, what did people have in a natural state? Can we do without technology?

I think the the mindset drawback is, it's hard. It's not always about being efficient. It's actually more about being effective.

Kylie: Oh, you're so right!

Katy: I specialize in efficiency, and I make people's bodies move as efficiently as humanly possible. But at the same time, is that really effective?

Just knowing that it's going to take a lot more effort to carry my kids through the zoo, than use the stroller. That's way more effortful, tiring, and my limbs are going to get worn out. But ultimately, my kids are going to move more, I'm going to move more, and there are benefits to making the harder choices.

Kylie: Absolutely. That's another thing. This is so high performance stuff too. Because, in terms of your day, we don't necessarily want a busy day. We want a productive day. Busy and productive. Just like the efficient and effective. Hmm, I love the crossover. So speaking of sitting, did you just your post about optimizing the time that you're sitting in your car?

What did you say in it, I didn't look at the post?

Katy: There is a way to optimize sitting in your car. I just posted this recently, because I had a drive to the studio last week. Normally, I take the train, so I was like, "okay, well I'm already in my car, so I'll do a quick video."

A car is a technology. A lot of seats are bucket seats, which basically means that from a side vantage point, it slopes to the back. The seat is sloped. As a result of that, when you go to sit in it, you will naturally tuck under and bend your low back. This puts a lot of pull on the hamstrings, because it's rocking the pelvis backward. A lot of people will then think, "I need a lumbar pillow to bring my back forward." All that's doing is shearing your ribs forwards, and you're still tucked under. The answer is to take the seat and flatten it.

I have a fancy car, so I can actually tilt my seat forward. But even that I can't un-bucket 100%. If you can fill in the bucket or slope with a towel, the gaping hole will level off, making the seat more flat and level. As a result, your pelvis is going to be more neutral when you're sitting, and take the pressure off your low back in that position.

My husband's car is old, a 2001, but it still has bucket seats. I think almost every car has it at this point. That's just something to think about. I was visiting my inlaws in Kansas recently, and my Mother-in-Law had a big lumbar pillow in her car.

Kylie: Are you like, oh my god?

Katy: I had to run to the grocery store, so I tilted the lumbar pillow down, and sat on it. That's what I needed, to bring my pelvis up.

Kylie: Oh, and then it applies to us as our pelvis feels that way, if we're squatting with our pelvis tucked under our body. I mean, if you don't have that range of motion. You're kind of already working against the grain.

Katy: Why keep repeating a bad habit? You might as well be able to self correct it, especially if you have to sit in your car for a long period of time. I think it goes back to frequency. If you're going to be in you car for a long period of time, your tissues will get adapted to that. You may as well like set your pelvis up into a nicer position and take the load off sitting on top of it.

Kylie: Oh my gosh, our lifestyle is just messing us up.

Katy: It is, you know, it is. It goes back to every trying to make life so much easier. Which I understand, because life is a lot harder than it used to be, from a stress situation. But, again, making some of those easy choices, aren't really that effective and helpful for our bodies.

I think that was the big paradigm shift I experienced. I could get from point A to point B in the fastest way possible, but what was I doing to my body to get there? It's like the Michael Phelps example.

Kylie: Right, exactly. And also I think we also struggle with trying to cram more and more things into our day. And so, if you can slow down that would be better. It's a problem because whenever I talk to people, they are doing so much. But if you're forced to slow down, and you can't put as much into your day, maybe you do more better, maybe you're more effective. I don't know.

Katy: I think people underestimate that rest is still movement. It really is. I know it looks like less, but to be laying down and being restful, you're still breathing, your eyes are still blinking or they're closed, your body is still moving internally, even though you're laying relatively still. Just know that needs to be in the circle of stacking your life. Rest needs to be of importance like walking.

Kylie: You're not doing a detriment to actually physically rest. Oh my gosh, it's so funny. I have a Pilates teacher client who just sold her studio. She's kind of nervous because she's going to have downtime. And she needs to talk to you. She needs to rest.

I've got to add one more point I wanted to say before we wrap up. This idea of the progress paradox. I read this years ago, but it's what you're saying, just because things are getting easier and better, our lives aren't necessarily improving. Right? And I see it from a physical standpoint like, "why does everybody have low back pain?"

Katy: Katy Bowman has some really good ideas around this. We have cultural injuries and cultural pathologies. You know what I mean? Assuming we're in a westernized culture, if you go to other areas of the world, they don't have these issues.

Bunions are the perfect example. Tribes in Africa don't have bunions, because they don't wear shoes. They have beautiful feet. They're toes are all spread out, and they can climb trees. You come to Chicago and most of my female clients have bunions, because they've been cramming their poor little feet into tiny, pointy shoes for 30-40 years. And again, the tissues have adapted to the shaping. It's a cultural thing.

Kylie: Right. You know, on that point, sometimes I thank God every day that I don't have my other career anymore, because I was wearing those pointy shoes, all day, every day. I never wear heels anymore. I'm just so grateful that I'm barefoot most of the time. Oh my gosh Katy, thank you so much. This is so helpful and good real life stuff.

Katy: I like to call it, "life fit." Because at the end of the day, it really is about being able to get through your life, and do the things you want to do, without your body stopping you.

Kylie: And we're all getting older, right? This is how we want to be able to move when we're 65-75. I don't plan on not moving then. There's no retirement. We can't afford to retire! I've made some connections with women who do focus on, as we get older, what's really important. We need to know what is really important. Man, it's being able to move.

Awesome Katy!

Katy: The majority of my clientele are baby boomers, so I know what's ahead of us. It's awesome to work with this population, because I've learned so much from them. Their goals are very different. Such as, I fell, so I need to have better balance. I have grandchildren, and I need to be able to keep up with them. I love to travel internationally, so I need to be able to put my bag in the overhead compartment. Those are life goals. That's daily life. To me, that's actually more attainable than saying, I really want a six pack at 70. You know, we could try, but it's aesthetic, not functional.

It's been really fun, because that is the way I've operated and taught clients; to have life goals. Now, those are my goals too! I want to be able to do those things. If I can't carry my child around now, then it's only going to get harder to be able to do it in 30 years, like if I have grandchildren someday.

Kylie: I would love to be able to still do what I do with my child, that I'm going to do with my grandchildren. So when these women start to work with you, do they come with you because they have an injury, or do they come with you because they're trying to get ahead of the game?

Katy: That's a good question. Probably a little of both. I have a couple direct referrals from physical therapists. As soon as they're done with PT, they basically end up in my studio. And then, yes, some people either have a friend at a party or somebody in their circle, suggest it. It's usually a direct referral. It's been really great for me, I think it'd be great for you, and the way it typically works.

Kylie: Oh yeah referrals are life.

Katy: I think the majority of what we get is referral based.

Kylie: Yeah, I love that. Okay, one last question. This is just an opinion question. You guys have those Lagree method classes out?

Katy: We do, not around here, but they are around.

Kylie: Do you have an opinion on them?

Katy: The super reformers look intimidating to me, and I know how to work them. It goes back to Joseph Pilates. When he created his method, it consisted of a Reformer, Cadillac, Wunda Chair, Ladder Barrel, Spine Corrector, etc. He created a whole system of movement. If you stick to one aspect of it, you're losing the holistic view of what it really meant to be.

I think what Joseph Pilates really wanted, if you read his books, is for people to be less sedentary, even in the 30s and 40s. He wanted to incorporate more movement into people's lives. There's all these videos of him teaching outdoors. He's into dry brushing. Breathing. Simple things that are still relevant today.

When there's been a Lagree method, it's kind of a bastardized version of Pilates. It's all about the goal of burning calories, loading to the max, and I think it just sets people up for a lot of injury. Because again, they're sitting at their desk for eight hours, and then they're knocking out a class for an hour, and their tissues aren't adapted to do a lot of those things.

From a long term standpoint, it's not as sustainable. I think at the end of the day, it's really about finding sustainable movement. What can you do for the rest of your life?

Kylie: Exactly! Yes, that needs to be on a T shirt. That's the same thing with what I talked about with my gal students. We shouldn't be on a diet, in terms of the sense we're eliminating things. We should be eating in a way that we can eat for the rest of our lives, that we're truly enjoying.

Katy: Correct, yeah if you're not enjoying it, what's the point?

Kylie: Right. Oh my god, I could talk to you all day long. I really appreciate your input and coming and talking to us. Thank you so much. This is so helpful, because again, big picture. Well, thanks again Katy, have a wonderful weekend.

Katy: I'll talk to you soon. I will find you online again.

Kylie: Thanks Katy.